During the Summer one of my graduate students (I'll call her Jane) who I have also known for more than 10 years, called me and asked if there was any way possible that she could be done with her thesis as soon as possible so that she could deal with a family issue. Jane told me when she originally decided to return to school several years ago that her husband (I'll call him Bill) was in favor of her continuing her education because it would mean that she could easily find a new position at almost twice her previous salary and they agreed that was a good thing for them. Jane explained that while Bill, who she has been with since before I had known her, had been very supportive while she was in school and working full time, that he had just told her that he wanted to separate. Jane told me that Bill had told her that he wanted to be supportive of her but that her complete lack of regard for him over the past few years coupled with her stress and anxiety over school had left him feeling abandoned and hurt and he needed to be apart from her. Bill told her that he had been feeling negatively about their relationship for a while but had kept it to himself because he believed if he told Jane he was so unhappy that she would have quit school and he didn't want her to do that (Jane agreed that she would have quit). But Bill had met his limit and wanted to separate. So, at Bill's request Jane took her son and moved back into her parents house.
Jane was devastated, contrite, and desperate to make things right with her husband Bill. She explained to me that she knew that Bill was right, that her priorities had gotten off track, that she had neglected him, developed tunnel vision and become excessive about her studies, and had become difficult to live with. I told Jane that I was very sorry to hear about her troubles and that I admired that she was willing to take responsibility and reorient her priorities and not just blame her husband. We discussed it and worked out a way that she could quickly meet her final requirements for her thesis and be done with it. Jane told me that she hoped to reconcile with her husband, but that she didn't know what would happen because her husband was more hurt and upset than she had ever seen him. I told her that I would pray for them. Jane also told a few other profs about her troubles. When the other two profs she told mentioned it to me they had a different take on what happened. Both thought her husband was a "jerk for not being supportive".
Today Jane stopped in my office to see me. I was very happy to hear that she and her husband had been "dating" and working on their relationship and that things between them were better than they had ever been. When I told my coworkers who were aware of her situation that she and her husband were reconciling one said "sure, now that she's done with school and can give him her undivided attention", and the other one said "well, I already gave her my 2 cents about that". When I asked my coworker what she meant by that, she said she had told Jane that her separation wasn't about her neglecting her marriage, that it was about something else and school was a convenient thing for her husband to blame.
With all the messages that women recieve about men and marriage I am glad that Jane was able examine her part in what happened, adjust her priorities, and move toward reconciling with her husband even though others thought their problems were just about him being an unsupportive jerk.
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19 comments:
Wow, a woman being introspective AND accepting responsibility for HER role in a relationship's demise?! And they said the age of miracles was over...
Seriously though, I'm glad these two got back together with one another. But, I wouldn't bank on a woman doing the same for me, so I shall remain single.
MarkyMark,
It makes me sad that things between men and women have eroded so badly that men such as yourself believe that women are all either married young or untrustworthy and morally bankrupt. While I know some women who are like what you describe, I feel like what you say does not reflect who I am as a woman at all. And I find it very difficult to believe that I am such an oddity that other women don't feel like I do about these issues. It causes me to wonder how often men such as yourself jump to conclusions about women. It also makes me wonder what sorts of incorrect assumptions men make about me.
Good for Jane. I love a story with a happy ending!
And I think I'm going to stay out of this other discussion!
Jonathan,
I'm a sucker for a happy ending too :)
As for your other comment...why? ;)
Learner,
Are there exceptions to the rule? Yes, there are; you seem to be one of them as have other women I've known. However, exceptions don't undermine a rule; they VALIDATE it.
Based on my experience and observation (I worked with many women over the years in addition to knowing others on a more intimate basis), I stand by what I said. I'll recount a story I told in response to Anna's comment, which was before yours...
I'll give you an example of what Male Samizdat talked about in his post that I used recently. About 10 years ago, I worked for a well known computer company that was on the Fortune 500. In my office was this woman who I'll call Sandy (not her real name). She was 35 at the time, and she was still single. She was still a nice looking woman with a nice body to match; though she was no doubt more attractive when she was younger, she was nice looking for her age. She had NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER getting guys, and she dated regularly while I worked there. I remember hearing her complain about some guy who wouldn't commit-like we haven't heard THAT before! I can tell you why a nice looking woman like her was still available @35: because she spent her 20s living a hedonistic lifestyle with various jerks (many women DO love jerks), and she was a corporate career whore too. IOW, it was her OWN FAULT that she was still single @35. The vast majority of women over 30 & single who I've encountered during my life WERE SINGLE FOR A REASON. I stand by what I said.
Are there exceptions? Yes, but they're very rare. For example, a woman could have spent her prime years taking care of her parents' as their health failed; that is a rare, noble act performed by ANY modern man or woman, such is the selfishness of the modern generation. That said, it is extremely rare for a woman to anything for anybody else; the vast majority I've known over the years are selfish narcissists, a la "Sex and the City".
I won't dispute that there are women who are exceptions to the rule; that's without question. What is overlooked is the RARITY of the exceptions-so rare that finding a needle in a FIELD of haystacks would be easy by comparison! We men have a crude saying that sums it up best: finding one of the exceptions is like looking for a Tootsie Roll in a sea of turds. For me, that sums it up. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to get all nasty & dirty trying to find that lone, Tootsie Roll...
MarkyMark
MarkyMark,
First, it would not be my position that you, or any man, should try to find a good woman. That is none of my business. But whether you realize it or not, good women get hurt (and I am not referring to just remaining single) when men assume that all women are the way you say they are. As a woman I care when men are misjudged and hurt, so I guess I think that men would also care about that happening to women. Maybe I am wrong about that. If I am, I think that is very sad.
However, exceptions don't undermine a rule; they VALIDATE it.
Because good women exist it validates that most women are not good? That makes no sense to me at all. I could as easily say the same thing about any group of people. Because good men exist it proves that most men are not good? Because good Mormons exist it proves that most Mormons are not good? I'm not arguing that most women are good, just questioning if good women are really as rare as you say.
I'm glad that this story, which started out badly, looks like it may have a happier ending.
Bill and I have been in the same shoes...he with Jane in regards to school, me and my former wife in regards to the children. Both of us felt left out in the cold. And it's no fun.
It must have been pretty bad for Bill to suggest a separation. I don't think men do things like that as easily as women do, so that suggests to me that things were quite bad indeed. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts their sex life was in the toilet and had been for some time.
"...that it was about something else and school was a convenient thing for her husband to blame."
I suppose that's possible, but I submit that men aren't like women. Dur! We don't usually say one thing is a problem when in reality it is something else. I suspect Bill is being straight up with Jane when he says he feels neglected and it pisses him off.
I am concerned, though, with the reaction of your coworkers. The whole "he's being a jerk for not being supportive" and resenting and mocking Bill for wanting his wife's attention strikes me as a tad counter-productive. Are these ladies divorced, perchance? In fact, I'll just say that their opinions were selfish and stupid. If one's relationship with a spouse isn't second only to God in your life, then there will be little wonder when your relationship founders. Bill isn't being selfish for wanting to be at the top of his wife's priority list, he's being smart and wise and frankly he deserves to be at the top, not 6th or 7th on the list.
I'd bet that if the roles were reversed and Bill was working crazy hours in the shop and Jane was home all alone, those coworkers would be singing a different tune. Bill would be a selfish jerk for being married to his job and ignoring Jane.
I'm actually pretty torqued at your coworkers Learner. I'd hate to be their husbands, if they have any. They probably have to check their testicles at the door when coming into the house.
"The vast majority of women over 30 & single who I've encountered during my life WERE SINGLE FOR A REASON."
Eligible Bachelor Paradox, perhaps? Although I agree that being a career whore has a lot to do with it to. However, I do fail to see how stupidity (being a corporate career whore and thinking that you can still bag a man and spawn a baby or two on your own timetable) is a character flaw.
EW,
"Jane" didn't go into detail about their sex life (thank God) but she did give me the impression that she had been neglecting him that way as well. I think that you are correct in saying that Bill meant what he said.
Both of my co-workers are married, one for the second time. Neither seems to have a very good marriage from the outside, though the blame for that appears to go both ways. I would say that neither woman or their husbands has their respective spouse at the top of their prority list unfortunately. You are right that if the situation with Bill and Jane was reversed that many women would have no problem seeing neglect as a problem, but when it is the lady neglecting the man, they don't see that. When the situation first happened this Summer and my coworkers talked about Bill being unsupportive I disagreed with them but since I am not married I think they think I just don't know what I am talking about.
They are not bad women. I could tell you a lot of very good things about them and how they were there for me when I was seriously injured a few years ago. They just have a hard time thinking outside of a feminist frame of mind on most issues. In some ways when we talk about issues like this it feels like I am "wittnessing" to them. The reaction from them in both situations is much the same- they think I am "quaint". lol
"...if the situation with Bill and Jane was reversed that many women would have no problem seeing neglect as a problem, but when it is the lady neglecting the man, they don't see that."
One of the tenets of feminism, IMHO as an engineering major and not a womyn's studies major, is its focus on maximizing autonomy for women.
With that in mind, the comments of your coworkers make a sort of perverse sense. They see how Bill's imposition on, and 'lack of support' of Jane, violates that autonomy-maximizing precept.
The concept they appear to miss is that a good marriage is about interdependency, not autonomy. Yet they appear to have lots of autonomy in their own marriages. It is not surprising to me that they are unhappy.
EW,
Interesting and insightful. I haven't thought about that before, but I think you are right about feminism being about maximizing autonomy (as though autonomy makes one "happy"). Both of these ladies are in situations where there is minimal dependence on their husbands.
oops, I meant interdependence.
Seemed the wise course of action at the time....
it is not uncommon for women in my generation (i'm 43) to think negatively about men in many situations. this is very sad.
however, it is equally sad that markymark would have such extremely sour beliefs about all women in general.
unfortunately, there is this generation that believes men should support the careers of women (think Father of the Bride).
a marriage is not about one becoming all that the one can become. it is about the marriage and family becoming all they can become together. it is give and take. it is blending into each other.
when i divorced i found it intriguing that my tastes and likes and dislikes in styles were so intertwined with my ex-husband's. it took time for me to discover what mine were on my own. i never found that to be a negative. when i was married, we were joined together ... our styles and likes and dislikes blended together over the years. that is how it should be. though the artist/designer in me enjoyed the journey of discovering these things separate from my ex, there was never any negativity that these had blended with him while married. sure there were things we each preferred, but as the years went on, we continued to blend our preferences till there was little distinction. that's how marriage should be.
jane's educational career took precedence for too long of an extended time over the marriage, over the two blending together. there are times when situations in one's life take precedence in relationships, but those should be short-lived with the goal of blending back together.
excellent post, Learner. sad that your coworkers discount your wisdom based on your single status. they are the ones loosing here.
LOL Jonathan!
Hi Ame,
Thanks. I appreciate your perspective. When my sister married I noticed that many of her tastes changed to match her husband's too, though she still doesn't like coffee which my bro-in-law swore he would convert her to! :).
Do we ever REALLY know? Giving of yourself to keep your marriage, wow, what a novel concept. I would do that if I could... Especially because being single isn't exactly a picinic.
Not all women who remain single into their 30s are single because of a career and hedonistic lifestyle. I know that won't be the case for me. I've only recently started hanging out until late with my friends to try and enjoy myself a little bit more. I try my best not to date jerks and get rid of them when I reach my limit. It makes me womder if I SHOULD have become a career whore since I haven't found love or love hasn't found me or whatever.
Savvy,
Giving of yourself doesn't seem to be very popular anymore, does it?
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