Extremism: I while back I wrote a post where I talked about the benefits of considering opinions more extreme than my own. It takes a bit of mental work, but often there is some truth at the base of many extreme opinions. I just have to be careful that I don't get carried away with it. Yesterday in the comments to a post over at Novaseeker's I made the mistake of reading the comment of someone who I had previously decided to avoid reading the comments of. However, I saw that he referred to my friend Ame, so I read it. You know, this may be the first time ever that I saw some good from porn. Perhaps it is better for women if some men prefer porn to them. Of course the reason it would be better has to do with the effects of porn to begin with, so that is rather a circular argument (and yes, entirely facetious).
Purity: Via email, a friend recently commented on some of the discussion over virginity and particularly the, um, physical aspects of it. She shared this bit of wisdom, gleaned in part from The Facts of Life: Purity resides in the heart, not in the vagina. True that.
Along similar lines, but far funnier, was a conversation I recently had with a group of single christian women ranging in age from early 20s to early 50s. We were talking about singleness and sexual temptation when one of the women, a widow in her early 50s who I'll refer to as "J", began to relate a story about a date she was on several months ago. J said that she found the man very sweet and that she really liked him and was struggling with being sexually tempted when he had his arm around her waist. She then shared that she was simultaneously embarrassed that he may be able to feel her Spanx. This lead to her conclusion that Spanx = modern day chastity belt :) (I know the ladies will think that is funny...we laughed over that one for quite a while)
Being "Normal": Or normalcy or normality? I don't know if those are even words. Anyhoo, I am participating in a women's Bible study on the book of Esther and the teacher via video (Beth Moore) did a survey of women, both believers and unbelievers while preparing for the study. One woman, married for a few years but without children, who responded to the survey said that she feared losing her uniqueness. She does not want to be considered normal or ordinary. She does not want who she is to be defined by being some one's "wife" or some one's "mother", she just wants to be "happy". The teacher made a very interesting connection between this woman's thoughts about not wanting to be "ordinary" and the current obsession with the famous and with fame, especially among women. She talked about a term from social psychology, to BIRK, or "birking", which stands for "basking in reflected glory", and how it has become so common for people to idolize the rich and famous to feel worth rather than to ground our worth in God.
In closing: If you are so inclined, please pray for my sister who had a biopsy yesterday and will likely be having a laser surgery in the next month or so due to what they are currently calling "pre-cancerous/suspicious" cells in an area the size of a quarter in her cervix (and for those of you for whom the thought may enter your mind, no, she does not have HPV and was a virgin when she married at 40 years of age).
And...
LET'S GO PENS!!!!!!!!
46 comments:
I don't think any good can come from porn. It's sinful, to be sure and any man who wants to avoid being sexually frustrated needs to stop looking at it. It's like being stuck in a dessert shop all day long looking at the turtle cheesecake longingly. A man doesn't need to put himself through that in the first place.
That said, a lot of anti-porn sentimentality is suspect in my eyes because it carries with it an animus towards male sexuality: "Oh you pervert! You are victimizing women and children every time you find a slim, young naked woman physically attractive!!" Such nonsense is unbiblical and actually backfires against Christians trying to make a witness for sexual purity. Most men are not going to take such prudish attempts to make them into eunuchs seriously.
Hi Anakin,
I agree that no good can come from porn. I was just angry (okay, furious)with what that guy had said to Ame. She does not deserve to have some idiot (and that is putting it mildly) talk to her like that. That led me to the thought that keeping someone like that away from women is good for women, even though I know that the reason for that is because of what frequent porn use has done to him.
I usually stay out of conversations about porn because I don't really have anything to say as I am not well versed about it's negative effects. I guess I just don't understand either why someone would want to watch other people having sex, no matter what the people looked like. It is not because I think sex is dirty or shameful, but because I think it is meant to be private between a husband and wife. A lot of people don't seem to get that there is a difference between "private" and "dirty".
I also understand that I am not a man so visual stimuli influence me differently. The fact that men are stimulated by what they see is not wrong or unbiblical at all. However just like a steady diet of sappy romance novels and firemen calendars can skew a woman's ability to appreciate guys that don't meet a certain standard, it seems pretty clear to me that a viewing porn a lot would skew a man's ability to appreciate women who don't meet a certain standard (especially their wives who, no matter what, will not remain young). Neither is a good thing.
Learner-
I read the extended comments on several of the threads re: men, women and porn, and think that I can comment here.
First of all, much of available porn does not feature 'perfect' women.
A great deal of it uses very normal looking gals. The internet has made home-grown adult movies very popular as well, where you are likely to see gals with very average looks and physiques.
I assure you that the endless dismissals and rejection from women in my age group damaged me and my ability to like women FAR MORE than any dirty magazines I have seen.
This ties into your comments about purity as well.
Most of the women I know have had enough sex partners to make me lose interest.
Or, they may have a child or two. I don't want to raise the child of the man she chose before me.
As I am in my early forties, I now am getting some interest from women who are seeing their options drastically reduced and are looking for a safe harbor.
Their youth and beauty spent on other men, their sexual energy depleted through being used, they offer me a severely damaged psyche as a marriage partner.
We rejected men are going to get the last laugh, however.
When these slutty, spoiled women cross the line (early 40s) and their market value begins to drop rapidly, they are finally going to have to reckon with the ruin they brought on themselves.
And since they completely wrung every last little bit of tenderness out of me through their haughty misbehavior, I plan to actually verbally take them to task if they ever venture to complain within my earshot.
Look for the guy who you overhear saying things like:
"Well, maybe you should have kept your legs closed."
"The key element here is that you are an abject failure at getting a guy to actually want to keep you after he f***s you."
Yes, I plan to actually say these things to women, and if I'm really lucky, I'll get to see them cry.
The women lost their tenderness a long time ago, so I am finally catching up with them.
You've probably noticed the early echoes of the 30-somethings who are beginning to write articles about wishing they could find a nice guy and have some kids.
To late, princess, the boat has sailed, you rejected us then, we reject you now.
I hope their old age is filled with many lonely, tearful nights.
L - nothin like a good friend to watch your back :)
his comments (though i did not read them) do not surprise me. he must devalue women to be as deep into porn as he is ... and if he validates me, he convicts himself, and he sure as heck is not going to do that!
***
AN ... you have a good point. there is no place for snotty prude-ness ... and when one denies a man his sexuality they take away his manhood. and good golly molly ... we don't need anymore of that in this world!
thank God for those of you who are men who stand up and be the man/men you are!
SA "Most of the women I know have had enough sex partners to make me lose interest."
wow ... that's sick. i don't get why women are like that.
i'm sorry you've been so severely hurt. i wouldn't want women like that, either.
however, i KNOW there are some good ones out there in your age group. may God bring one to you someday ... one who will give you reason to find your tenderness again.
"nothin like a good friend to watch your back :)"
Very true my friend :) Hugs!!!
Ame-
Thank you for the nice sentiment.
At present, I feel like I am too much 'damaged goods' to be worthy of a Godly woman. I'm in the last stages of anger, and can feel the resignation taking hold. A good Christian woman deserves better than me.
And I'm unwilling to accept a worldly skank, partly because I don't want to be unequally yoked, partly because I won't reward these women with the support which is all they want anyway.
Classic catch-22, isn't it?
SA - yeah, it is a catch 22.
but can i give you a different pov?
first of all ... define 'godly woman'. i consider myself one, sometimes ... others are often more generous than i with that ... but i know how wretched i am. i often think of John standing at the foot of the cross, looking at Jesus, his beloved friend, and having to accept that he, John, even being as close to Jesus as he was, was just as much in need of Jesus' salvation as the thief on the next cross over.
there is this philosophy out there that we've got to have it all together before we meet the one we're gonna marry. i don't buy into it.
my fiance and i are two very imperfect people, each with a lot of stuff. he's 51 and i'm 44. we can't live that long and not have 'stuff'. when we met he had just come out of a 'bad place' and i was in one. we've just chosen to 'do life together' ... and while doing so, we've learned a lot about each other and about 'us' together and how we're gonna deal with stuff for the rest of our lives.
'perfect' is for those who do not live in reality, for it does not exist.
i really and truly do understand the anger. my story is long and 'distinguished' and filled with more 'stuff' than any one person should have to experience in one lifetime. to be honest, i'm surprised there is a man out there who can handle all of it, but there is, and he does, with great grace. he says to me, 'you've been sh** on all your life, and that's ending now.'
and he is NOT perfect ... he does NOT have his whole act together ... he has broken relationships that may never heal in this lifetime. but i love him as he is.
i'm truly sorry for what women have done to you ... and for what we do to each other. we think this world is all about me, and it just is not. if there's one thing i want to teach my girls it is that this world is NOT just all about them.
your anger is very real ... and justified. anger is not wrong ... it's what we do with it that is often wrong.
when i was in my sexual abuse recovery group (from what my dear dad did to me as a little girl), we learned that the depth of the offense determines the length of time needed to work thru forgiveness. to blatantly and flippantly forgive for a severe wrong is actually an insult. and as you know, anger is a huge part of this process.
as a woman, as a woman whom many would call a 'godly woman,' i've never wanted a perfect man who has it all together. i've wanted a perfectly imperfect man who is pliable and teachable in the hands of God.
and one last thought ... we're all damaged goods in desperate need of forgiveness and salvation from our depravity. who is to determine the worth of another but God, Himself?
"A good Christian woman deserves better than me."
We are all sinners SA, even good Christian women.
You sound like a good and decent guy to me, who has(sadly) been hurt by unscrupulous
and self centred women.
Your anger is understandable.
Be hopeful, though. Ame is right I reckon, there ARE good women out there.
Best wishes.....
Hi SA,
Thanks for the comment even though I struggle with how to respond. I am sorry for how women have treated you and I do believe that experiences with rejection like what you describe happen, I have seen it with my brother and other male friends. I have also watched some female friends do the rejecting. But not every women who is single in her 30s or 40s or older is like these women you describe.
As a 43 year old woman who has not lived my life in the manner you describe, what you say mostly makes me very sad and puzzled. It seems there are many good men who have not met a good woman who they want to be with who also wants to be with them. I also know women in this same predicament, including myself. Now, I am more than willing to admit that I am not very conventionally attractive. I am not saying I think I am ugly, I don't. Or that no man has ever found me attractive, some have. I am just saying that I am aware of how I "measure up" that way and understand that narrows the number of men who have been and will be interested in me. Add to that the fact that as a christian I am not to marry an unbelieving man and the available pool narrows more.
I guess I am just very poorly and in a rambling sort of way trying to say that I am truly sorry about what happened to you and to other men, and that I have been there myself in some ways. I just hope, perhaps selfishly and grounded in my own past experiences, that you, and men who feel the way you do, will be careful to not aim the hurt you feel at a woman who you wrongly assume to be like you describe.
Please note, I am not trying to talk you or any man into having a relationship with a woman, I can understand the caution of a man in the current climate. (Not to mention the fact that it is really kind of nutty to try to talk anyone into that...who wants to be with someone who someone else had to talk into it?)
SA,
Yeesh...that may be the most incomprehensible comment I have ever written...I hope it makes sense.
Learner-
It is very clear that you, and women like Ame are not the type I am referring to.
The damage has been done however, and now, when any woman shows interest in me, I recoil, regardless of who they are.
Is this wrong? Probably.
But that is my response.
I am not posting here to get sympathy, though.
I am posting so that even good Christian women understand why many of us men have checked out.
I now know what it is like to fell completely emotionally gone. I live vicariously through others and get great joy when things work out for other people.
I am, for lack of a better definition, a born-again Christian.
I drink, I smoke, and I occasionally look at and read things I know I should not.
Most Christian women will judge that rather than want to understand that.
Weakness, survival, resignation, they are nothing to be proud of, but they are part of what many of us are.
I am past me sell-by date, and due to some events beyond my control, I have a very low market value. I have accepted that.
And that is why I say that I would be a terrible partner for a good Christian woman. Flawed as we all are, they deserve better.
Here is where the indictment comes:
I could no longer take the rejection from Christian women (this is long before I had my 'conversations' with alcohol or other things).
It drove me to worldly women, who at least treated me with respect, even as they refused to consider me.
The Christian girls treated me with haughty contempt.
I have found the world's solutions to have a modicum of comfort for me, compared to the church's harshness.
Despite all of my awful shortcomings, I know God still loves me, although I can't imagine why.
Yeah...Pens...well, at least I don't pay much heed to hockey, so the chances of another Pittsburgh team causing me great pain are considerably lower.
I don't much like the Wings either, but just for balance in the sports world and to repay the city for the sins of its football team, I'll be pulling for Detroit. And come on, the Lions didn't win a single game last year, so those fans need this! Have some empathy...
And SA, I know what you mean. In some ways I'm quickly approaching or are already at where you are now, just at a younger age. What can I say, spending too many years immersed in this feminist matriarchy of ours takes its toll. I'm pretty much at the point where I just want our culture to implode as fast and as spectacularly as possible so that it can serve as a warning to other (better) cultures out there that are at risk of following our path.
i have been greatly and deeply hurt by the organized church, too. they abandoned me and threw me into a dark abyss, figuratively, when my ex filed for divorce. it seems the only ones they love are married couples with kids.
but somewhere along the line of, 'i know God loves me,' we have to meet others who can lift us up in God's love, based solely on the holy Bible alone. that is more than likely not going to happen in organized church.
it has, ironically, happened for me out here in cyberspace and more pointedly in the blogosphere.
i continue to struggle greatly with organized church. i used to be deeply involved in church and ministry through the church. what i have experienced and seen and continue to see has left me fragmented. the process of healing has become longer than i thought. i still don't have answers or resolution. i hold to my bible, my God, and the friends and people God provides. again, most of those have been through blogging. i used to think this was somehow wrong, but i've come to believe this is the medium through which God has chosen to bring healing into my life. the healing and the trying to figure all this out has been painful, often excruciating, full of judgement from other christians. i think satan gets big points out here using believers against each other, burning us to the point where we no longer read our bibles or pray to holy God. we just cannot let him win. we must fight, within ourselves, for truth. we must clothe ourselves in the armor of God and stand firm(ephesians 6). it is NOT easy ... it is often more than we can do on our own. i often pray that God would enable me to do what He has asked me to do, for i have nothing left in me to do it on my own.
may there be a place where you find God bringing healing into your life. cling to Him and His Holy Word ... there, and there alone, is hope, and healing. from there, may God bring into your life those who will touch your heart and promote healing ... friends, mentors, physicians to meet our physical needs, psychologists to meet our emotional needs, etc.
SA,
"I am posting so that even good Christian women understand why many of us men have checked out."
Thank you for that SA, reading the thoughts of men such as yourself has helped me to see what is going on and understand to the degree that I have. I am also sure that degree is limited by the fact that I am a woman among other things.
But, I have hope, if not for our culture as a whole, then for individuals. That hope is based on the fact that God can and does change hearts. I also understand that some christian women are resistant to hearing what you and other men have to say, and so appreciate the "risk" (for lack of a better word) you take in expressing it. It is part of why I have this blog, in the hopes that I can help women understand what is happening.
So, even though you do not come here for sympathy I hope you will excuse it. You are, after all, my brother.
Jesse,
" I'll be pulling for Detroit. And come on, the Lions didn't win a single game last year, so those fans need this! Have some empathy..."
I'm sorry my brother, but when it comes to my sports teams I have NO
empathy! :) Me thinks you are pulling for Detroit because your widdle Cards got beat ;) If the Pens win, it will be just like back in 1979 when the Steelers won the SuperBowl and the Pirates the World Series (Were you born yet in 1979 Jesse?....We won't mention that I was, ahem, 13 that year and went to one of the World Series games.) That was also the last year the Pirates were in the World Series, let alone win it....Surely the Pirates MLB record for most losing seasons in a row is enough payment for the Pittsburgh sports fan? :)
Ame,
"i think satan gets big points out here using believers against each other, burning us to the point where we no longer read our bibles or pray to holy God."
This is sadly true. The church, and individual believers who have attacked their own when they are hurting are going to have a lot to answer for.
To clarify what I meant by a good Christian woman, I didn't mean someone who was perfect.
I meant that a woman who really is walking with the Lord doesn't need the hell of dating/marrying me in my current state. Hopefully the Lord will patch me up enough to be 'relationship-functional' again. Maybe I'm better off single.
That's what I meant - it's not my past that concerns me (new creation in Christ) it's my 'present', lol.
I also want to clarify what I meant when I said:
"Most Christian women will judge that rather than want to understand that."
First of all, I meant to say 'many', just to be fair, but it could be 'most' for all I know.
What is your impression when you think of a woman who fantasizes about dating a celebrity, or reads tons of romance novels, or gets dreamy over some musician?
Well, you might see a person who could be hurting from a lack of the right kind of attention/affection from suitable guys, and is numbing the pain through these artificial avenues.
OR, it might be some insecure girl who can't deal with the fact that she can only get regular guys instead of alpha males, and lives in a fantasyland of her own making, where she deserves her prince on a horse and regular guys should be treated like crap(if you're reading this Carol N., yes I mean you).
Which is it?
Well, only God knows the heart. Although, the way she treats nice guys will tell you a lot. If she is respectful, she's person A. IF she scorns nice guys for even talking to her **cough*Carol*cough**, well then she's the second one.
Now let's reverse the situation.
What is your impression when you think of a guy who looks at 'inappropriate publications'?
I would submit that there, the average Christian woman would just rubber-stamp him a pervert and call it a day.
Of those who venture beyond that into a little more reflection, they may view this guy as a poor sick individual, a slobbering loser who is a slave to porn, like a heroin addict. Somewhat condescending, no?
I believe I am onto something here.
(I am not defending porn, by the way. I also don't defend drinking, swearing, or overeating either.)
The problem may be that there are still some remnants of Victorian or Puritanical views still attached to male sexuality.
This can cause there to be a lack of calm, mature discussion about the issue, with women mistaking their discomfort with the topic, and therefore assuming that male sexuality is a sick awful thing from satan.
Anyway, Jacob said:
"And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her."
Do you picture him kneeling in prayer demurely, asking for the opportunity to 'sire Godley offspring' (ewww).
Or did he really want some good old-fashioned sex?
You get one guess.
SA,
Have mercy on me, my brother, because my thought process is rather concrete at the present time and I am not sure if you are asking me to answer those questions or if you are making a rhetorical point...which is it?
Sorry about that - it was rhetorical and tongue-in-cheek as well.
Although, I suppose that just because Jacob said it does not make it a correct thing. Selah, as they say...
Out of curiosity, what is your concrete thought process, as you put it?
Nothin' serious, just askin'.
And let me make absolutely clear that any vitriolic comments I put out are in no way directed at you, or the nice Christian ladies who have commented here.
For me what starts as simple explanation often gets filled up with too much of my disdain for this fallen world.
So please consider you and your opinions respected by this here guy.
:)
SA,
Thank you. When I said my thought process was concrete I just meant that I am under some stress from school stuff and it seems to make it hard for me to pick up on subtleties. Like, whether or not you were asking the questions of me!
"The problem may be that there are still some remnants of Victorian or Puritanical views still attached to male sexuality."
Could you give some examples of this?
Well, I have heard many examples from various bloggers or letters to Dear Abbey or whatever about how men have married women who really never want to have sex, and when they do, want it to be over right away.
Or, they will participate but never initiate.
The reason given in may instances is that 'nice girls are not supposed to be that interested in sex.'
Or 'sex is necessary but dirty.'
Well marital sex is either Sin or not sin.
If it is not sin then it is not dirty.
Now, I understand that a gal who saves herself for marriage may actually have some trepidation about sex, and that she may eventually settle into an uneasy truce with marital sex.
I have dated a number of Christian girls, some who (though virgins) say that they are so horny that one of the reasons they want to get married is so they can start having sex.
Other women I've dated seem terrified that some day their perverted husband is going to want to, um, 'go in unto her.' (Probably several times, and in rapid succession - sorry, couldn't resist).
Anyway, for those women who have this trepidation, WHICH IS NOT A FAULT, "nice girls don't" may become an easy out, and provide cover for their fears. This is NOT a deliberate deception on their part, rather it is a mistaken view that MAY be robbing them of a healthy sexual relationship.
Now take that women and tell her that some guy she knows has looked at porn.
Think she is going to view it with a detached, calm view?
Or will she immediately file him under 'pervert' and move on to the next thought?
Porn is bad.
But I submit that women don't understand guys and porn because they DON'T WANT TO understand it.
And I don't mean the condescending type of understanding either.
I mean mature wisdom, and openness to understanding the tremendous pressures guys face.
Too many women 'decide' that guys have it easy, and then trot off into their victim narrative.
I assure you, they are basing their judgments on observing alpha males.
"Now, I understand that a gal who saves herself for marriage may actually have some trepidation about sex, and that she may eventually settle into an uneasy truce with marital sex."
I don't think that is necessarily true SA.
" Or, they will participate but never initiate"
I also thing that is not always the case either.
I quite often initiate sex with my husband. Simply because I love him, want to please him and enjoy having sex with him. It's pleasurable for us both.
It's a win win situation.
And, oh, it is just so nice to lay entwined together in the afterglow and drift off to sleep.
Truly, it doesn't get any better than that!
SA,
Thanks for clarifying.
"Porn is bad.
But I submit that women don't understand guys and porn because they DON'T WANT TO understand it."
Hmm
"Now, I understand that a gal who saves herself for marriage may actually have some trepidation about sex, and that she may eventually settle into an uneasy truce with marital sex."
Please note my use of the word "MAY".
Meaning 'might', 'could be', or 'possible'.
Clearly I wasn't talking about someone such as yourself.
I'm taking about people who do have hangups about the issue.
You said:
"I don't think that is necessarily true SA."
Where, exactly, did I state that it was necessarily true? Or that it was extremely common?
You also said:
"I also thing that is not always the case either."
Please point out where I said 'always', or even 'mostly'.
I really don't mean to be a jerk, but I get tired of making a point only to have someone say, "Oh, that's not *always* the case".
I submit that in a way you have proved one of my points for me.
You were so ready to tell me how something isn't always the case that you didn't even pay attention to the point I was making.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is how your comments make me feel:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1) You started to see something that you didn't like in what I said, and rather than pondering it, you begin looking for a way to defeat my statement.
2) You unconsciously or consciously DECIDED to *incorrectly* accuse me of saying something was "always" the case, rather than sometimes.
3) You then point out a counterexample, and PRESTO!!!! You can suddenly dismiss everything I said. You now don't have to go through the trouble of trying to understand me.
===============================
Careful! I didn't say you DID this, I said you made me FEEL like you did it. It's not an accusation, it is a true statement of my feelings.
So my point stands, many (as in SOME, not ALL) women say they want to understand men, but their actions tell me a different story.
Not mad, just tired and frustrated.
Sorry to have upset you SA.It was certainly not my intention.In my clumsy kind of way I was just trying to be positive. Not accusing you of anything, or wishing to dismiss your views in any way, just givng an obviously poorly expressed opinion..
Please accept my apology.
Sometimes I think I should just keep my big mouth shut.
i was in the waiting room at my ob/gyn's office one day after i had had both my babies. there was a couple also waiting. she was obviously about to give birth any day, and we struck up a conversation.
they were scared. they had heard so much terrifying stuff from parents! i thought about that a moment and told them they were right. unfortunately, most parents talk only about the negative. but what they leave out is how much they LOVE that baby!
i looked at the wife and asked her, "would you mind taking care of your husband in the middle of the night if needed you?" she looked at me with that, "of course not!" look. so i told her that it would be the same with the baby.
*** continued in next comment ***
*** continued from previous comment ... blogger will only allow so many characters in a comment! hahahahaha! ***
SA is right. your fears are valid. your concerns are valid. i think that married couples often talk only about the negative so much that they freak out the singles. i mean, really, after being around most married couples, who would want THAT?!
given my ex's deep addiction to porn, the years i spent in counseling therapy, and all the many times my male therapist explained the male sex drive, etc to me as i keenly observed the carpet on his floor and the pictures on his wall ... i have more of an understanding of all of this.
i now assume all men have had some kind of relationship with porn. i would guess that in some places in the world there are those who haven't, but they'd be hard to find these days.
i also know of christian, married couples who watch porn together (though, personally, that has never been my thing). i also know many christians who smoke (though i am very allergic to it and have to limit my time around them because it makes me very sick).
i think being honest about ourselves is the most important thing. this is who i am. this is where i've been. this is where i am. this is where i'm working at going. the truth is so elusive these days that when someone does tell the truth, as it is, it's almost as if anyone hearing it goes into shock.
my fiance is an imperfect man, and he's marrying an imperfect woman. we will have an imperfect marriage. i guess i've been around enough to know 'perfect' is reserved for heaven, and we ain't there yet.
there have been times we were talking about something, and he said to me, "this is probably not what you want to hear, but ..."
you know, it wasn't always what i wished were true, but his honesty trumped what he told me.
also, for me personally, because of my personal experience with my ex, a 'good christian church-going man' raises a lot of red flags. my ex would never miss a tithe or a church service. he taught bible study. and he was screwing prostitutes. i don't know what he's doing with his sex addiction now, and i really don't care as long as he doesn't touch my daughters (and i watch him like a hawk), but i know he's super church man ... doesn't miss a service ... big time involved in his singles group ... teaches, etc. he still treats me like crap and has put me through absolute hell ... while reading his bible. the two don't gel, at all. but that's God's to deal with now. i'm out.
i guess i'm saying there IS a LOT of disparity out there. what has been your personal experience, what you have heard that has trumped everything else you know or have heard, is your reality. your reality is valid. your fears are real. and what you do with them and how you handle them is up to you.
i think we are all driven by our own sets of fears. i know i certainly am. my dad sexually abused me and my ex was an abusive sex addict. THAT certainly colors my views of men ... creates and drives my fears, my values, my desires, everything.
i spent two and a half years in intensive psychotherapy working thru all this stuff, and i mean i worked by butt off. and i still struggle, a lot.
my fiance says to me, 'you've been sh** on all your life, and that's ending now."
you know ... i believe him, and yet, there's still this fear deep inside me. he's gonna have to prove it, over and over. and i have to give him the opportunity to prove it.
even my 11 year old has said to me, "you know, mom, the only kind of dad i've ever known is mean. i'm scard this one is going to be just like him."
her fears are valid and real. only time will determine if this man will prove to be who i think he is.
life is hard, really, really hard. and sometimes is just plain sucks. but God is more good than life is hard, and i really, really, really have to hold onto that.
Kathy-
The point I'm trying to make is that while it is really great that you have an excellent physical relationship with your husband, and you have a healthy view of that relationship, some women *might* not have this healthy view.
Ame mentions a case where it sounds like she was trying to avoid hearing about male sexuality (if I understand correctly).
There's an old joke:
95% of men look at porn, 5% lie.
Anakin - In reality for some it may increase frustration, for some it may alleviate it. I hear both versions.
And your second point about eunuch-making is DEAD ON.
Women will understand us when they want to. But part of that will mean accepting what we are.
If 99.99% of guys look at porn, then just maybe we can't ALL be sick, twisted perverts.
Defintition of porn is based on intended use, by the way, not content. The sears catalog bra section could qualify as porn if it falls into the wrongs hands, so to speak.
Women who take the time to understand male sexuality and deal with it without fear or disgust will find out we are not as awful as they thought we were (I know a few of these kind of women).
SA - "Ame mentions a case where it sounds like she was trying to avoid hearing about male sexuality (if I understand correctly)."
i believe you are referring to:
"given my ex's deep addiction to porn, the years i spent in counseling therapy, and all the many times my male therapist explained the male sex drive, etc to me as i keenly observed the carpet on his floor and the pictures on his wall ... i have more of an understanding of all of this."
***
no, i was not trying to avoid hearing about it, for i did want to hear about it. it was just VERY uncomfortable sitting three feet away from my male therapist and having him tell me these things, fairly graphically, which he did so i would understand, and to look him in the eye at the same time.
i cannot say that i will ever understand male sexuality, as i am female. but i do believe i have a good enough knowledge to understand it to the best extent i can, and i am not going to be offended at the kind of porn you are referring to.
as i mentioned in my comment that our fears color our world, and my fear of a man looking at any porn would be that he would become addicted to the point my ex was and sleep with prostitutes. i am learning that not all men have addictive tendencies, and there are men who can look and walk away.
i would personally be offended if porn became a substitute for me in my marriage (as it did). the fact that my (ex) husband would actually look at porn and lie about it is what made me so angry. of course, he was way over his head.
i tell my fiance that all i want is the truth, and only the truth, always. i can deal with the truth; i cannot stomach the lie.
i am not going to berrate him or kick him out or call him a pervert or think of him as a pervert b/c he's looked at porn. if he looks at it in our marriage i'd like to know why and to know what i can do to keep his focus on me.
and, btw, no person can watch even a football game and not see porn splattered all over the screen.
men are very sexual, and very visually sexual. God made em that way. a good wife will care for that in fulfilling ways within her marriage, allowing him to be the sexual person God created him to be.
I get what you mean now. I originally thought you meant you were trying to not listen.
Well, you did what you could trying to understand, I'm sorry he let you down.
With regard to the definition of porn, my opinion is that it goes to intent. Take Maxim magazine, with alluring celebrity gals in skimpy clothes.
If you really ARE buying for the frat-boy articles, then perhaps it isn't porn.
But if you're buying it to get the picture layout of Jennifer Love Hewitt, then maybe it is.
Kathy-
Like I said, I was not angry with your reply, just frustrated.
On another note, to follow up on the whole checking-out-of-the-scene situation, I seem to be getting hit on, for lack of a better word, quite a bit lately. What is interesting is the total lack of effect it is having on me.
Crossing the 40s must do that to some guys. I am more interested in intellectual conversation than I am in a relationship. I'm not looking at porn either, so don't think that's the reason.
It's kind of like women have lost their ability to hold my interest. I still have the leftover pain of all the years of rejection, but even when presented with an opportunity where a nice gal is showing serious interest, I sort of draw away.
I get what you mean now. I originally thought you meant you were trying to not listen.
Well, you did what you could trying to understand, I'm sorry he let you down.
With regard to the definition of porn, my opinion is that it goes to intent. Take Maxim magazine, with alluring celebrity gals in skimpy clothes.
If you really ARE buying for the frat-boy articles, then perhaps it isn't porn.
But if you're buying it to get the picture layout of Jennifer Love Hewitt, then maybe it is.
Kathy-
Like I said, I was not angry with your reply, just frustrated.
On another note, to follow up on the whole checking-out-of-the-scene situation, I seem to be getting hit on, for lack of a better word, quite a bit lately. What is interesting is the total lack of effect it is having on me.
Crossing the 40s must do that to some guys. I am more interested in intellectual conversation than I am in a relationship. I'm not looking at porn either, so don't think that's the reason.
It's kind of like women have lost their ability to hold my interest. I still have the leftover pain of all the years of rejection, but even when presented with an opportunity where a nice gal is showing serious interest, I sort of draw away.
SA,
Thank you for sharing what you have. It will make me careful to not allow any lack of understanding or discomfort from not understanding that I may have with a man's sexuality to come out as negativity.
"I still have the leftover pain of all the years of rejection, but even when presented with an opportunity where a nice gal is showing serious interest, I sort of draw away."
Do you know why? (sorry if that is too personal!)
I was barely alive when the Pirates last won the World Series, so I don't remember it in vivid detail.
I'm actually a big Pirates fan though, or was back in the day at least. I remember them and the Braves dueling it out a few times in the Leyland days of the early 90s, when Pittsburgh had that outfield of Van Slyke/Bonilla/Bonds (before Bonds started looking like something out of a comic book). We used to go to St. Louis (nearest baseball city) for long weekends to see games, usually either the Cubs or Pirates; I even remember walking partway to Busch Stadium with Zane Smith for a game and him asking my brother and I how we were out watching baseball on a school day.
Unfortunately the Pirates never got to the World Series, but those were my peak years of interest in baseball. And I still root against the Braves to this day.
Anyway, looks like someone had better remind the Pens that the Finals have started and it'd be wise to start showing up to games...
That's a good question, and to answer I will have to hypothesize, since I'm not really sure.
Perhaps some of it is changes due to age.
Perhaps it is a form of 'relationship malnutrition', where if you go without food long enough, you get to the point where the body rejects food even though it is starving.
Maybe the methods and feelings one uses to cope with rejection ultimately become the new program, replacing what used to be there.
Wish I had better insight. It is probably one of the above, who knows?
I still hang around with quite a few gals who are friends, and I enjoy their company and intellect a lot.
It just never seems that romantic/sexual energy ever materializes.
So personal question for you, Learner:
Does male sexuality in the context of marriage make you nervous/scared/squeamish/nauseated/etc?
Jesse,
Yeah, the early 90's under Leyland were a good time to be a Pirates fan. I still will occaisonally go up to see a game with family or friends. PNC Park is an awesome place to watch baseball. My mom is a diehard fan who watches or listens to every game she can. Drives my dad crazy :)
I also accept the responsibility of taking what I dish out in terms of the sports stuff.....so feel free to give me a hard time about the Pens if you feel so inclined. And yes, the Pens need to wake up. Though I will say they looked better in the first 2 games this year than last year.
SA,
Interesting answer to my question. Do you think the romantic/sexual feelings don't materialize because you are not looking for them or because they just don't come? Perhaps that is a question without an answer.
Regarding your question, squeamish/nauseated? No. Nervous/scared? Yes and no. Yes due to a combination of history and lack of history at the same time. No because, 1. my bad experience with a man was not normal male sexuality, and 2. I don't think I could marry a man who would not or could not be sensitive to both my "history and lack of history", so any nervousness or fear I might feel is a moot point to a certain degree.
So would his sensitivity manifest itself as a willingness to move slowly (after marriage), for example no sex on the wedding night?
Or to completely abstain from certain types of sexual activity altogether? (In other words regardless of how slowly he approached the issue)?
Or by a low frequency of intimate activity?
All of the above?
I take it that you don't harbor hopes of the Scarlett O'hara scene where Rhett swoops her up and trots her up the stairs, fixin' to ravish her proper-like.
(Sorry, couldn't resist the movie reference).
Your answer certainly seems legitimate, but it is somewhat vague.
With respect to my issue:
I don't know. Probably a mix of those factors I listed.
Maybe I have a poor attitude? Possible.
I coped with the slings and arrows as best as I could, and I find myself in the place I am. Dating in America no longer has enough structure to allow the average person any real reference points anymore.
Every human is now a lab rat in the great dating experiment.
SA,
"Your answer certainly seems legitimate, but it is somewhat vague."
Vague is my middle name when it comes to discussing some of these kinds of things in public. Not because I think it is dirty or wrong, but because I see it as private. I also realize that is not adding to the discussion, so I will try to be a bit more forthcoming.
"So would his sensitivity manifest itself as a willingness to move slowly (after marriage), for example no sex on the wedding night?"
Maybe, maybe not. Heh heh kinda vague, wasn't it :) Okay, seriously, I hope to have sex on my wedding night, heck I hope to have sex as soon as possible after the wedding. But, I don't really know what will happen for sure so I would want (need?) my husband to be patient with me (I would be patient with him too). That is more true for me now than it was before my "bad experience" (which was not rape though he threatened it). I very much regret that what another man did may effect my relationship with my husband and I very much want to do whatever I can so that it does not, but I can't pretend it didn't happen either (wish I could...tried that...didn't work).
"Or to completely abstain from certain types of sexual activity altogether? (In other words regardless of how slowly he approached the issue)?"
I guess that depends on the type of activity. Assuming it to be something in which only he and I were involved it would depend on if there was some other reason to abstain from it (Biblical, health etc).
"Or by a low frequency of intimate activity?"
I sure hope not!
I think the sensitivity I am talking about would be more along the lines of his understanding where I am coming from and being willing to openly talk about things. I don't mean that he should second guess his every word and action, but more that if I tell him something is hurting me or making me uncomfortable for some reason that he would be willing to work through that with me and not become angry.
I don't mean to imply that your attitude is poor SA. I am in no position to judge that. I just think sometimes you sound like you have lost your hope and I don't like to see my brothers in that position.
SA - let me 'pinch hit' a little bit for Learner here.
i think your questions and concerns about how a woman of virtue like Learner would respond to her husband's sexuality are excellent and valid, especially from a man's pov.
having been married for 20 years and having been around many married women, please allow me to hop in here.
i think it is difficult for a woman to understand the chemical changes in her body that draw her into desire for her man when she falls in love and gets engaged and anticipates getting married.
i say that b/c i had a difficult time after my divorce, even having been married (although to a true sex addict ... and that's another story) ever imagining being with another man. however, now that i'm about to get married, it's a whole different story!
also, a HUGE factor that determines a woman's response is how her husband handles her (and i've read where a man wrote of such somewhere out here on the web, but i cannot remember where).
if he is cold and driven by his own needs and desires, even if he shows some concern for his wife's, she will have a difficult time.
a man who takes the time to be patient with his wife (especially if he's experienced and she's not) will reep great rewards for both he and his wife.
as far as what she is willing to do and how much she's willing to try ... i believe that depends on the care and tenderness and patience of her husband.
for example, if i may be so bold out here, oral sex to a woman who has not had sex could easily be offensive. but i know few women who have been married for good amounts of time to a tender husband who wouldn't want to share that with him.
another big topic that came up a lot with my married friends was anal sex. that is totally offensive to most women, married or not, and it is also unclean and can cause a lot of medical problems. from what i've heard from other women whose husbands push for that, most of them have been deep into porn.
and that's where some real negative aspects of porn come in. a man (or woman if she's the one into it) get these ideas and then press them on their spouse.
***
so i think that to some extent Learner can answer your question, but to another extent she cannot.
***
i will also add this ... the women who have a difficult time with married sex with a patient and caring husbands are usually those who have issues they are unwilling or unaware of to deal with.
a woman who is teachable and willing to deal with her 'own stuff' ... and who has a very patient and caring and tender husband ... is more than likely (i would hypothisize more than 90%) going to be very responsive to her husband.
and over time ... as they get to know each other and develop trust and that 'safe place' within their marriage, 'experimenting' within the marriage bed will become fun and exciting for both spouses.
(btw - i've heard said that those most satisfied with sex are married,christian women!)
Whew! Thanks Ame ;)
As a Christian guy, that would be all I would be looking for.
Above all things, I expect that my wife and I would be able to privately discuss any issue surrounding sexuality.
I have some acquaintances whose wives are cold and are unwilling to listen openly about it - they basically say that they have been permanently cut off without any appeal of the sentence.
Ame-
With regard to the more explicit points you have tendered, I have to say that the most critical thing is that these things need to be discussed like adults BEFORE the marriage.
If the guy is going to want to engage in certain things, that should be discussed beforehand.
Learner-
I guess that is the question I was really asking you. As a prototype of the 'good Christian woman', how detailed of a discussion pre-marriage do you think is appropriate?
Personally, if I ever get close to an engagement, there will be lots of discussion. If the woman showed reticence to discuss these issues, then maybe we would not be compatible.
The world always tells us that you need to test-drive your significant others to see if you are sexually compatible.
I think that candid discussions pre-marriage are a far better way to test this compatibility.
I will definitely be asking any future wife her feelings about types of intimate activities and the frequency thereof.
I also think that it is very important to be in agreement ahead of time about getting the sex shut off.
I will not marry a woman who thinks that sexual relations are a reward for mowing the lawn. Or, if she feels justified cutting me off for extended periods just because she doesn't feel like it.
SA,
I'm not sure I'm the prototype of the "good Christian woman", but if a couple is at the point of engagement I think they should talk specifically about it in terms of specific acts and frequency. I would want to do that. I may not be entirely comfortable with the discussion and my honest answer to some things may be "I don't know", but I would still want to talk about it a good bit. In terms of with-holding sex from your spouse I think the scripture is pretty clear that should not be done except for brief periods and only by mutual agreement. I don't think "not feeling like it" is adequate reason to deny your spouse. I'm sure sometimes that would mean working on and putting effort toward "feeling like it".
I agree, and I think that the guy should also put forth an effort to do things that she needs/wants even if he doesn't 'feel like it'.
I think people forget that marriage is an agreement that combines mutual sacrifice for mutual benefit.
Too many think that their benefits are more important and that they need not sacrifice.
SA - thank you for willingly taking the time to stick out this conversation, especially when we didn't understand you.
this stuff is hard, especially when there's been SO. MUCH. HURT.
i think i can speak for Learner when i say that we do NOT want to add to that in any way.
communication is so vital, especially between men and women, and even more especially between a husband and wife.
marriage is a covenant that costs us something. it is a sacrifice. and that's what makes it so beautiful when it working the way God intended :)
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