No, this is not a political poll.
Last week I commented on a post from this blog about this article titled That Was No Accident and started with the following statement: You two were careful, but somehow she got pregnant. It happens. Or not... Getting tricked into fatherhood by a woman hell-bent on getting pregnant is much more common than you think.
This post is going to be more than long enough so I’m not going to recount the post here though I do suggest you read it and the comments to fully understand what this post is about.
After reading MarkyMark’s commentary on the article it seemed to me that he thought that most women would find this sort of behavior acceptable and I wondered why he thought that, so I asked: Certainly the women in this article and women like them are utterly deplorable. I'm curious about one thing though. I got the impression (and perhaps incorrectly so) from the information about how many women get pregnant while "on the pill" (50/1000, or 5%) that it wasn't something that the majority of women are doing. Why do you feel that this is commonplace or that it represents the way a majority of women believe?
You can read the comments thread after the post that I linked above if you are interested, but the gist of his response was: It's quite possible that I'm wrong; it's possible that a majority of women DISAGREE with this, and that they wouldn't do something like this.
This started me thinking. In the past I have been sometimes surprised at the views of some women I know about men. So I wondered if I was wrong in my assumption that most of the women I know would find the behavior of the women in this article reprehensible. I decided to do an informal poll to find out.
I had 4 separate conversations with 10 women ranging from 22 to 45 years of age, some single, some married, some Christians, some not, some I am not certain what their faith is. I paraphrased each of the conversations as soon as I was able so I could recall them as accurately as possible. I’ve chosen pseudonyms for my “participants”.
Conversation with work friends #1 (WF1) and #2 (WF2) at lunch: Both are married, in their late 30s, believe in God but do not practice the Christian faith, and have children. WF1 has a pre-school boy and WE2 has 2 young adult step children.
Learner (L): Hey, I have a bit of an odd question for you
WF1: shoot
L: Let’s say there is a woman who has a boyfriend, or is dating a guy and decides she wants to get pregnant, but does not consult the man. Instead she tells him she is on birth control, when she is not, so she can get pregnant. What would you think about that?
WF1: That’s terrible, that would be wrong.
L: Okay, do you think he should have to pay child support for the fraudulently conceived child?
WF1: Hmm…..well if he thought she was protected and she manipulated him to get pregnant, no, that wouldn’t be fair.
Around this point in the conversation, one of my other work friends enters the room.
L: hey can I ask you an odd question?
Work Friend 2(WF2): (laughing) sure why stop now?
L: (laughing) are you trying to say that most of my questions are odd?! Okay, do you think it is right or wrong for a woman who is dating a man and who wants to have a baby to not talk to him about it, tell him she is “protected” when she really isn’t, so that she can get pregnant?
WF2: It’s wrong. Are you dating again?
WF1: (laughing) I was wondering the same thing when you asked me……
L: (laughing) No! Trust me, if and when I decide to date again there will probably be lots of angst that you will hear about well in advance.
WF1: Well that’s true….
L: (to WF2) So you would think of that as wrong?
WF2: yes, it’s wrong. It scares the sh#t out of me that (step-son’s girlfriend) is going to pull that on (step-son).
L: Okay, so do you think a man in that situation should have to pay child support?
WF2: Of course he should.
L: Even if the pregnancy is against his wishes and knowledge?
WF2: Yes, because there is always a chance that it will lead to pregnancy, there is no fool proof birth control except a vasectomy or keeping it in his pants. If he didn’t want to take the risk of her getting pregnant he should have had it snipped or not had sex with her.
WF1: True
L: That doesn’t seem fair to me. The reasoning “if you didn’t want to conceive a child you shouldn’t have had sex” never flies when a woman has an unexpected pregnancy.
WF2: Life isn’t fair
L: True, life isn’t fair but shouldn’t laws be fair? I mean the current laws give women all the protection but don’t protect men.
WF2: Child support laws protect the child.
WF1: That’s true, the child shouldn’t suffer because their mother is an idiot.
L: Okay, I agree that it isn’t the child’s fault too. But the child is protected only in certain circumstances. If a man decides he wants to be a father and tells his girlfriend that he has had a vasectomy but he hasn’t and she gets pregnant, the law gives her choice in the matter where it doesn’t give men.
WF2: No it doesn’t, let him have custody and she would have to pay child support. The child is protected in both situations by the law.
L: Actually the child is not protected in that scenario because the woman could chose to abort the baby and the law supports that choice. The law doesn’t protect the child from their mom choosing to abort them and also gives men no such choice.
WF2: Now hold on, that is a totally different question
L: No it isn’t….it is exactly the same thing. In both situations one partner lies to the other with the purpose of having a baby against the wishes of the other partner. If it is the woman who lies to the man he has no recourse, but if it is the man who lies to the woman, she has the option to abort the baby. How does the inequity in the law protect the child in that scenario?
WF2: Well, that depends on if you think a fetus is a child.
L: You know I think an unborn baby is a child.
WF2: Not everyone thinks that way
L: Ok, but that doesn’t change the fact that the law is inequitable because it protects the rights of women, but not the rights of men, and protects the rights of children only if their moms decide not to abort them.
WF2: If a man doesn’t like it he should keep it in his pants. (changes the subject)
My sister (LS), a 44 year old married Christian with 1 child, while on the phone as she was trying to wrangle her soon-to-be 3 year-old to go grocery shopping.
Learner (L): Hey I have a question for you, do you have time?
Learner’s Sister (LS): I have a few minutes, I’m trying to get (my niece) ready to go grocery shopping.
L: Is (my bro-in-law) going too?
LS: Yes, or I won’t survive (laughing)
L: Ok this is a hypothetical question. It has nothing to do with me.
LS: Ok
L: What would you think about a woman who had a boyfriend and she decided she wants to have a baby without discussing it with him, so she stops using birth control so she can get pregnant, but he thinks they are protected, and then she gets pregnant?
LS: Why are you asking me this?
L: It’s just something we discussed at work and I wanted to see what you think.
LS: Eeeww. I think that would be a bad idea.
L: A bad idea?
LS: Yeah, I mean that would be stupid and wrong.
L: Ok, how about this, should he pay child support?
LS: Oooh….that wouldn’t be right…..that is tough (I can hear my niece “Oh Mommy! Oh Mommy! Oh Mommy!) hang on a sec….someone is being ornery today.
L: Not my sweet niece!?
LS: Yes, she hit (the cat), and she hit mommy.
L: Oh my. I better let you go, but real quick, what do you think about the child support thing?
LS: Well it is wrong if she manipulated and lied to him to get pregnant…. it wouldn’t be fair. On the other hand the same thing could have happened even if she was on the pill. No form of birth control is 100% except not having sex so there is always a chance the woman will get pregnant when you have sex. You have to be responsible for whatever happens.
L: Ok, Thanks for indulging me, I’ll talk to you later.
LS: Sure, bye
My friend (LF), a single 45 year old Christian woman, over email:
L: What to you think of this hypothetical question: Let’s say there is a woman who has a boyfriend and she decides she wants to get pregnant, but does not discuss this with her boyfriend. Instead she tells him she is on birth control, but she stops using it so she can get pregnant. What do you think about that? And, do you think if she does get pregnant and has a baby that he should have to pay child support?
LF: WOW! Um... in answer to your question? To do that would be underhanded, deceptive and completely unethical. In fact, I'm not at all sure if I was on a jury in court (for this girl to sue to get child support from the guy) and this came out, that I'd rule in favor of her. But you know who would be hurt, of course.... THE CHILD!
A conversation with six unmarried/single female graduate students ages ~22-25 in a small group class while we were doing a learning activity that is more action than talk. Some students talked more than others. I am unaware of any of them being involved in the campus Christian group but I don’t know if any of these girls are practicing Christians or not.
L: Hey can I ask you guys a totally unrelated and somewhat odd question?
General assent given by the group of students…..
L: Let’s say a woman wants to get pregnant and she has a boyfriend but he doesn’t want to have a baby. She stops using birth control so she can get pregnant but her boyfriend thinks she is still on it. Maybe she even lies and tells him she is.
Several students: oooooo
Student 1 (S1): That is wrong.
S2: That would destroy the relationship, destroy the trust….how could he trust you?
S3: Yeah, that is terrible
S4: Well maybe if she was going to raise it alone without him
S2: What? That’s crazy, it’s his kid too.
S5: I don’t know, I can kind of see what S4 is saying, I mean if he is sure he doesn’t want kids? Then yes, it is wrong. But if he just isn’t ready maybe it’s ok….
S1: But how would you like it if a guy did that to you…told you he had a vasectomy but he didn’t so you’d get pregnant, I bet you wouldn’t like that!
S6: Yeah, you wouldn’t like it
S5: Hmm, ok, yeah, I wouldn’t want that. That would be bad.
S4: I see what you mean, it’s dishonest if you don’t talk about it first.
L: Ok, should he have to pay child support?
They all thought a minute and then nodded/said yes.
L: Even though she lied?
S4: It does sound kind of unfair but it could have happened even if she was still on birth control.
S5: Yeah, because you can’t pass the responsibility for birth control onto someone else. If you don’t want any chance of having a baby you shouldn’t have sex.
S2: Oooo that’s hard …..but my Dad always tells my brother that “there is no such thing as a girl on birth control, either you take care of it yourself or don’t have sex”. It sucks that some girls lie but you also have to be responsible for yourself.
S6: If he 100% didn’t want to have a baby he shouldn’t have had sex. He shouldn’t have to because she lied but the law says he has to.
S1: It isn’t the baby’s fault, it shouldn’t suffer.
L: (to S3) What about you, should he have to pay?
S3: Um…yes, but just because you shouldn’t punish the baby.
This was the usual pattern: I ask the woman the question, and most women (all but 2) immediately say it is wrong to get pregnant fraudulently. Regarding child support for the child in question, most agree it is unfair to the man but that the child should be protected. Most women also voiced the opinion that having sex means there is a chance pregnancy will occur.
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14 comments:
Learner,
Thanks for doing this poll. It was indeed interesting! It's too bad you didn't turn the child support thing around on the girls though. You mentioned the guy lying about the vasectomy and knocking her up; it would have been cool if you could have asked them if they should have been responsible for the CS also. I have a sneakin' suspicion that their answers would have been different...
When I made my post on this, I wasn't clear about how many women would do this; that's my bad. FYI, the British magazine, "That's Life", did a poll on this, but the sample was a lot bigger. Guess what? 40% of women saw NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER WITH LYING ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL. Since America and Britain are close in more ways than one, I'll make the assumption that a similar percentage of American women would have seen no problem with the hypothetical scenario, either. IOW, though not a majority, I think it IS fair to say that a significant minority of women WOULD do something like this. That alone is enough to give a guy pause.
Secondly, if this DOES go to court, family court would most likely adjudicate a matter such as this. If that's so, then the guy is SCREWED-end of story. I was falsely accused over 10 years ago, and I got to visit family court, because the bitch slapped a court order on me. A kangaroo court would have been more honest and just than my hearing! That SOB judge cut off my attorney in mid-sentence as he was arguing a pertinent legal point; the judge did NOT want to hear it. His mind was made up, and that was that.
Finally, CS, though it's nominally for the child, is not legally required to be SPENT on the child! Yes, you read that right; CS does not have to go to the child. Baby momma can spend that money any way she pleases, and she doesn't have to give account to anyone about any expenditure of those funds; furthermore, even if she WERE caught, she wouldn't be punished anyway. More of that p-pass at work...
I'm out of here. If you like, I'll post a link here, so my readers can check out your poll. Thanks again!
MarkyMark
Learner,
I just made a post linking to your new poll. I provided a link to my 'oopsie' post; provided a link to your blog; and, I provided a link to your 'Poll' post. After all, by the time someone sees my post, you may have made new ones. I wanted to cover my bases, so I linked both to your blog in general, and your 'poll' post in particular. Thanks for following through on this, as it was interesting! Have a good night...
MarkyMark
MarkyMark
Oh, thanks for the link Markymark. I agree that it is fair to say that a significant minority of women would do this or think it is ok. Two years ago I would have been way more shocked about that than I am now.
Family court is a mess. When I first started reading about this stuff divorce/custody/CS was one of the first areas that kept me exploring the subject because the inequity was undeniable.
Just because they say it is wrong, does not mean they will not do it. When emotions are tied up with women choosing a man they want to have a baby with they will often forsake "doing the right thing" for getting what they want.
Just because they say it is wrong, does not mean they will not do it.
True, and true for men and women on many different issues. People don't always match their actions to their words. This is definately a "limitation" of this "poll"....I wasn't asking them if they would do it or not, I was asking them if they thought it was wrong.
Learner, I want to compliment you on such dogged and determined interrogatory, keeping your subjects on point and such. I doff my hat to you.
Reading your results, 80% of the women you polled said it was wrong--leaving 20% who think it's okay--and 90% said it was the man's problem anyway, that he should pay child support.
If your sample generalizes, what is clear to me is that personal responsibility rarely enters a woman's vocabulary. Nearly all were emphatic about sticking someone else with the bill for the pregnancy, even if fraud was involved.
In addition, I did smirk at how they cloaked their passing of responsibility onto men in "good of the child" language. Bovine ejectus. Very few children in our society suffer from lack of money, either from Uncle Sam or from estranged fathers.* What these women really want is the payday that Mark refers to that comes with the squeezing out one of these children.
"If a man doesn’t like it he should keep it in his pants"
What about the women? Where was their responsibility to keep their legs closed to prevent a pregnancy? How come no one ever seems to think of that? Moreover, there's nary a thought of a man's right to his body and his rights in reproduction. It's all about them and their body and their "choices". If the kid was going to suffer so badly, why not give the child up for adoption? Nope...it's all about tagging someone else to support YOUR choices.
Authority without responsibility is tyranny; Responsibility without authority is slavery.
This quote caught my eye:
"...but my Dad always tells my brother that “there is no such thing as a girl on birth control, either you take care of it yourself or don’t have sex”
I'm actually ambivalent about this statement. On one hand, Dad is speaking the truth in that he is clueing his son into the political condition of men. OTOH, daughter hears this and internalizes it as carte blanche to behave like a monster because "that's just what women do", or something.
* Study after study confirm that what is not needed from fathers is more money, but the fathers themselves.
EW,
Thanks for the comment.
LOL, well I guess I can be dogged and determined (I just really enjoy "research" in many forms...more evidence I am a geek). I don't think my sample would generalize all that well since it was a kind of convenience sample, but the results were close to what I anticipated. I didn't anticipate all of the "it isn't fair but he should pay for the sake of the child" part though. That was the "mixed bag" part for me.
"...but my Dad always tells my brother that “there is no such thing as a girl on birth control, either you take care of it yourself or don’t have sex”
I'm actually ambivalent about this statement. On one hand, Dad is speaking the truth in that he is clueing his son into the political condition of men. OTOH, daughter hears this and internalizes it as carte blanche to behave like a monster because "that's just what women do", or something.
I feel compelled to "defend" the student this refers to a bit. I may not have effectively captured this in my "paraphrase" because there were so many more people talking all at one time in this conversation(next poll I'll tape record and transcribe verbatim!. But, the student whose father gave this advice to her brother was one of the most vocal about how wrong this behavior on the part of women was. I did not seem to me that she believed she had carte blanche for the same behavior, though I understand what you are getting at.
Wow...
I enjoyed reading this post =p
I do really think men are being royally screwed when it comes to family laws...I mean, how hard would it be to require a *d-word* that means "detailed list of expenses" Tax Return if the woman is receiving Child-Support (sorry major brain fart and it still hasn't cleared up)?
That way, she is ALWAYS liable to an Audit (only those that do the d-word are subject to audit).
EW is a little...pessimistic...to the point of paranoia - in his response, that is...
I really respect him and all, but in this case, I think he's assuming the worst regardless of logic.
Take his case concerning the father that warned his son to be careful and never assume a girl is on BC...
Only a real BITCH would have had the reaction that EW puts forth.
If ANY thought is put into it (which I must admit, most women really don't actually think about it), if a woman has a brother that could end up in this type of a scrape, her behavior is more honoring of men than a woman who does not - meaning her reaction to this would be more on par with what you detailed later.
I HATE abortion and I think it should be completely and totally done away with - I hate it that women have the ability to ditch their responsibility.
But really, that's the ONLY time a woman is really refusing to put up with the consequences of her actions. Not every woman is going to think that's ok...even if getting pregnant was something SHE didn't want, either.
My boyfriend says "if you do the nasty, you gotta be willing to accept the consequences" - that includes deceptive, lying bitches taking advantage of you. Its not like every woman who gets knocked up WANTS that to happen and is dishonest about it...and not every woman who gets pregnant and didn't want to will get an abortion.
Here's a hypothetical that I'm curious what would be said:
You have a woman who is completely honest at all times with boyfriend. She goes on birth control for a small amount of time and TELLS him. She has complications with it and stops. She tells him that day that she stopped. 2 weeks later, she's pregnant. 2 weeks later, she finds out. That day, she call her boyfriend and tells him and spends the entire day in tears because "this was not the way it was supposed to happen". She decides to carry the baby to term, anyway.
What is the father's responsibility in this?
Or do you guys think that that REALLY is not possible for a woman to have that kind of a reaction to her pregnancy without ever intending it to happen?
Hi Christina,
Thanks for the comment :)
I agree with you about abortion and would like to see it outlawed as murder. It makes total sense too, what you said about child support and taxes. That money should be spent on the child.
As you said on MarkyMark's blog post, there is always abstainence...it's the only 100% sure way to make sure that an unwanted pregnancy does not occur.
*note-have not read linked posts*
i find this interesting ... and very sad.
my sister wanted a baby, told her bf, got pregnant, he eventually was never-more in the picture. she married another man; is still married to other man. baby is now a senior in hs and a complete delight.
male friend's ex wife got pregnant b4 him, didn't marry the man; got pregnant with him, they married ... lasted ten years. he's been known to say that he believes she just wanted babies and child support. still, he loves his kid, and he's the first to say, 'it takes two to tango.'
i also have a friend who is the product of rape ... birth mother carried to term, gave up for adoption. 38 years later found birth mother. we both have the same convictions about abortion ... absolutely and totally wrong. period.
my mom got pregnant with me, and my dad married her. i believe (though i do not know for certain) that she tricked him ... and he hated me and hated her for it. they had three more kids ... and 42 years later finally divorced.
***
in my personal way of thinking, i guess i'm really old-fashioned. truth is, children really are the victims here ... and as generations grow up and move on, it is all of society that pays.
we want to dishonor God ... do things our own way ... then we want to find ways to blame someone else. when does, "the buck stop here?"
i am divorced b/c my ex chose prostitutes. yes, he pays child support. he also chooses to see the children when it's convenient to him ... barges into their lives at his convenience ... is not a part of the day-in and day-out living of their lives. NO, i did not get pregnant without his approval ... we were married 11 and 13 years b4 having our babies ... and they were his desire, too.
to have to account for every penny i spend from child support? i, personally, in my personal situation, would resent that ... to the same degree i resent his unfaithfulness with multiple prostitutes.
my whole life is my kids. his life includes his singles group from church, traveling, game nights, going out with his friends. mine includes being home every night my girls are home (which is all but four nights a month), caring for them, loving them, nurturing them, nursing them when they are ill.
is it fair? absolutely not. has it been easy? absolutely not. and i've cried more tears than i ever knew heaven could hold. but since when is divorce supposed to be 'good' or 'easy' or even 'fair?' since when is being a single parent supposed to be 'good' or 'easy' or even 'fair?'
i did not make the choices for the divorce, yet i must live with the consequences. is that fair? absolutely not. but it is life.
there must be something greater then ourselves that we live for. i absolutely support fighting for more equity. but in the same vein, we live in a fallen world, and there will never be real equity.
my girls are worth living for and fighting for, even if it costs me ... and it has cost me. but they're worth it. having grown up in an abusive home, i've always wished there would have been someone, somewhere, in my geneology who would have cared for me more than their own personal crap, even though they didn't know me yet. my girls, my grandchildren, my great-grandchildren, etc, will never have to say that about me.
***
okay, Learner, i've hijacked your site. obviously this struck many chords in me.
Ame,
Hijack anytime you like :) As usual you have wise things to say.
Lies are a terrible foundation for a relationship. For some reason, I have compared notes with Swing (who I had one nice date with) and we have decided we can't figure out why people can be so bad to each other.
Christina,
Don't feed me that line about women getting pregnant by accident-puhleeaaase! With 10-12 types of BC available to you as a woman, you have NO EXCUSE if you get pregnant-none! If a woman gets pregnant, it's because she WANTED to get pregnant...
MarkyMark
MarkyMark,
I'm not saying that some women don't get pregnant on purpose, but Christina is factually correct. There is no 100% effective way to prevent conception except abstinence. At best, even methods like the DepoProvera shots or inserted hormone rings like Nuva ring that remove the need to remember to take the pill every day are 98-99.99% effective (that means they are ineffective 2 to .001 % of the time even in ideal situations). A women can do everything "right" and still get pregnant.
Other medications like antibiotics can effect the effectiveness of hormonal birth control methods too. Forgetting to take the pill even one day (or being sick and unable to keep it down)can effect it's ability to prevent conception for days. Even taking it at different times of the day can effect it. Have you ever had to take a medication every day? I have been taking daily medication for my thyroid for 15 years and I still forget to take it sometimes. It's not easy to remember even in ideal situations.
I totally think it is wrong for a woman to get pregnant in a fraudulent manner but don't assume every woman who gets pregnant while using birth control wanted to do so. If that was true then why would abortion be so rampant?
Birth control pills (or other forms of hormonal birth control)are not the solution to this issue. They have terrible side effects. Do you know a woman who is a testy bitch? It could be because she is on birth control. I have taken the pill in the past for a brief period of time(not to prevent pregnancy, but to try to regulate my cycle)and it made me stark raving loony, seriously. They also effect a woman's subsequent fertility and increase her risk for things like cancer, heart attacks and strokes. I have had three women under the age of 30 as patients who had strokes. Every one of them was on birth control. One of them died. It is not a good thing.
It isn't hard to see that God's way is best in this is it? If we obey God as a single person and remain abstinent then we don't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies or side effects.
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